I never outright said the Bible was a fable...I said it could verywell be a very long, detailed story...
There is too much missing information for me to rule religion and god to be true, and the same can be said about evolution, but I find evolution has a lot of answers for me where religion just leaves me with questions..
And I was never fond of the catholic motto.. "don't ask questions...just have faith.."
Posted by: HOODLUMinc at April 25, 2003 04:58 PMit doesnt have to be a religion vs evolution debate at all. there are christians who believe in evolution in a broad sense. i am not one of those myself, but there are many out there.
youre claiming the only proof is a book. thats not true, as i pointed out. the bible and related records have been proven historically true for one. two, the prophetic accuracy of the bible is amazing. third- jesus changed the world. now, either he really rose from the dead, or a bloody, lifeless body changed an entire society and turned the world upside down. thats hardly just a detailed story as proof. there are other points too, but it would take a novel to write them out.
as for dinosaurs and such...the bible might indeed talk about them. there are a few animals talked about that many people think are dinosaurs...behemoth for one...some think it might be a dinosaur (many creationists argue for that definition)..who knows. thats pretty flimsy to claim the bible doesnt talk about dinosaurs (which may or may not be true), thus it must be a fable.
Posted by: Joshua Taj Bozeman at April 24, 2003 11:37 AMSo like all other pro religion debate remarks, your only proof are writings that could very well mean nothing more than a very long, elaborate story...which if written today would have been made into a Hollywood movie...
The bible says nothing about dinosaurs or cromagnon man, or the like, but there has been physical evidence of such things leading towards mans existance on this planet through evolution...
There are thousands of other neolithic species, and pre-historic evidence to sway the "thoery of evolution" to the "fact of evolution" but there is still a lot of holes (one major one being the missing link) to ever have this thoery ever be considered fact....and unfortunately, all the religion side has is a long, detailed book that could have been written by anyone....noone knows for sure, other than what "the book says" (which could very well be just a figment of someones imagination)
So like I said...this can drag on for months......religion vs evolution debates unfortunately lead nowhere..
Posted by: HOODLUMinc at April 24, 2003 11:24 AMactually, the resurrection is not only talked about in the bible. the prophecies that have been fulfilled are contained in tens of thousands of manuscripts. the bible is the piece of 'literature' backed up by more manuscripts than any other piece on earth. there's more to back up the bible in the way of those manuscripts which differ very little than there is for all of the plays of shakespeare combined. archeological evidence supports the bible as well. historians said that certain civilizations talked about in the bible never existed...yet, the bible has been proven true time and time again by the archeaological evidence and these civilizations people said never existed were found. theres much more to go on than just the bible itself.
as for the bible being a tall tale re-written over centuries, thats just frankly not true. we know it hasnt been rewritten because of the thousands of complete manuscripts i mentioned...and we know that we have proof that much of it is indeed real history...more proof will build up each day.
Posted by: Joshua Taj Bozeman at April 24, 2003 01:53 AMOh yeah, also read James 2:14-26.
Posted by: Churchgirl at April 23, 2003 10:36 PMJosh, you speak of the bibile and the "thousands of people who witnessed the resurection of jesus" as being "enough proof"....but that "proof" is coming from the same story book you are bined to..
It could just be that...a story..
Say 10,000 years from now, the world is in a state of chaos and all known past history is lost, except for the Lord of the Rings novels....
Just because the book says it, doesn't make it true...
As I see it, evolution has much more proof in it's "theory" than Religion.
I will admit, it still has MANY holes in it to ever be considered "hard evidence", but it does have more than a tall tale re-written over centuries.....
This is just my opinion though....and this will most likely turn into a pissing contest like all relivion VS evolution discussions do...so I'm not going to get into it.
Im going to agree to disagree. We each have our own opinions. I respect yours because they are yours and you live by them, but I have my own too.
Posted by: HOODLUMinc at April 23, 2003 06:37 PMall sins are equal...blasphemy of the holy ghost is basically denying jesus. its what the pharasies were guilty of. if you have committed one sin, you have committed them all. as for eternal security. im not sure. its probably the case, because from my reading, once your taken into the lord, you cannot be snatched away from him. as for works...the bible never says that works will get you into heaven...it says just the opposite. it says that works is good, in that it pleases the father, but eternity is secured thru the blood of christ and that blood alone.
Posted by: Joshua Taj Bozeman at April 23, 2003 04:14 PMHoodlum, not to break in here, but the verse is, "Many are CALLED, but few are chosen." However, this is not the entire verse. (It's actually quite touching.) Matthew 20:15-17 (Jesus is speaking here) "It is not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen."
And I believe Josh is an eternal securist. They believe in the "once saved, always saved" mentality that many Christians, myself included, turn away from. However, it is his right to believe this way, just as it is your right not to believe at all.
Jesus spoke many times about good works. While works will not buy a "seat in heaven", so to speak, it reflects a Jesus-like attitude. After all, Jesus said for his followers to take care of the orphans and the widows. It is our responsibility to be the voice of Jesus to a lost and dying world.
Most sin is equal in God's eyes. But not ALL sin. As it says in Mark 3:28-29, (Jesus speaking again) "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith sover they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation." He goes on to say in verse 35, "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."
Now, if you'd like to read something truly interesting, go to I Corinthians 18-31. Especially verses 19 and 30-31.
"For it is written, I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND WILL BRING TO NOTHING THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE PRUDENT." "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption. That, according as it is written, HE THAT GLORIETH, LET HIM GLORY IN THE LORD."
Oh, I also suggest reading Matthew 5:1-49. In these verses it says, (Jesus speaking) "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."
Pretty neat stuff. At any rate, it will give a frame of reference and not just a bunch of quoted and sometimes mis-quoted scripture. Have a nice day.
Posted by: Churchgirl at April 23, 2003 03:45 PMthats not christianity at all. you can kill a million people and go to heaven. the commandments are good to live by...they should be followed, but they play no part in getting into heaven. accepting the lord jesus is the way to heaven. following the commandments would be works...works gets you nowhere. you can live your life perfectly and not accept the lord, and youll go to heaven. as for sins, all sin is the same in gods eyes...and after accepting jesus, he took on all of our sins on the cross...when we repent, were forgiven thru his blood...you can be forgiven for anything and everything, outside of not accepting the lord into your life. so, you can commit any sin (murder included) and get to heaven. our sins are cast into the sea of...whats the word. i forget the exact word that is used, but the sins are cast out to sea and forgotten about...thru christ. if you look at this history of it all, it just isnt tales to keep people in line. jesus was a historical figure...he lived, he died...his resurrection was seen by thousands...it changed the world. you have to see that and accept that thats some pretty solid evidence...then you go from there and study and learn more, and youll see all the other proofs. its not just a fable someone made up. not at all.
Posted by: Joshua Taj Bozeman at April 23, 2003 10:05 AMActually, if you go out and kill 100 people, you probably won't get into heaven (if you believe in that sort of thing)
The saying goes..."Many will come, but few are chosen"
This usually pertains to how you live your life mainly according to the ten commandments.
Those who live their lives perfectly according to those commandments and accept the lord will go to heaven.....
If you kill 100 people, your chances become slim considering you broke the "thou shall not kill" commandment.
And I simplified the main idea to prove a point. Sure it goes deeper than what I said, but you can't deny the main idea revolves around getting people to be good in life by enticeing them with a reward (heaven) in an afterlife.
Posted by: HOODLUMinc at April 23, 2003 07:36 AM"You have your god, you worship him and his values. If you're good, you get rewarded in the afterlife, and if you're bad, you are punished in the afterlife..."
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that's not what the bible says at all. all "good" people dont go to heaven, and all "bad" people dont go to hell. works plays no part in it...unless youre catholic and youve made up a place called purgatory that doesnt exist...youre life in jesus is what gets you to heaven. youre denial of jesus is what gets you to hell. i can go out and kill 100 people and go to heaven if i accept the lord into my life. youre oversimplifying here.
I wasn't comparing christianity to islam...I was just pointing out the fact that one of your points against Islam was that it was taken from christianity and changed a bit...so I pointed out christianity was taken from Judiasm and changed a bit as well..
Most religions revolve around the same concept....so of course they are all going to be similar.
You have your god, you worship him and his values. If you're good, you get rewarded in the afterlife, and if you're bad, you are punished in the afterlife...
Sounds like the perfect population control method if you ask me...but you havn't so I'm just saying...
Posted by: HOODLUMinc at April 22, 2003 10:44 AMwe follow the same god. the judaism holy book is the old testament! you cant compare that with christianity and islam.
Posted by: Joshua Taj Bozeman at April 22, 2003 09:43 AMNo, Judaism came first, then christianity branched off of it and formed it's own religion.
http://www.convert.org/differ.htm
Read that site...it explains it very well.
Posted by: HOODLUMinc at April 22, 2003 08:37 AMchristianity didnt take from judaism. theyre both formed from the same rellgion...judaism. many jews believe that christ was the one of god. christians believe jews go to heaven...we worship the same god. its not the same at all.
Posted by: Joshua Taj Bozeman at April 22, 2003 02:59 AMChristianity came after Judism, and is a direct branch from it...
Christians pretty much took the Jewish faith, turned it around, and made it their own...
THis kind of thing has been happening throughout the history of religion....which is why I don't believe in god myself...
It is all a story in my opinion...a story used to keep people in line...
Tell them if they're good, they get a reward after they die, and if they're bad, threaten them with hell..
It's the perfect population control tool if you ask me...
Once again, this is just my opinion. If you believe in Gof, more power to you and I'm not going to try to change your mind..
I have engaged in too many God vs Evolution debates to know both sides lack the necessairy proof to be called fact...
Posted by: HOODLUMinc at April 21, 2003 05:24 PM
Attacks?
Just a note to anyone who might be coming from Haley's site...You can see for yourself in the last few posts if I have made any 'brutal insensitive attacks' on Islam. I have made a few educated comments on the religion, based upon what Muhammed said, as well as the founding and history of Islam.
It was started after Christianity...they basically lifted much of Christianity and The Bible, and called the concepts their own...they said Jesus was a prophet of God and he is an important figure, yet they say Muhammed is the final prophet. This contradicts itself, since Christ said he was the only son of God, he was the only way to the Father...You can't believe what both men say, yet Muslims, in foundation, do.
The Koran is based upon the life of Muhammed, a man who could neither read or write...who had "visions," in which he convinced people were signs from the true God, Allah...and to prove he was the true prophet, he had a circular birthmark near his shoulder. That's pretty much the bulk of evidence of Islam's foundation...some visions and a birthmark.
Muhammed spent the final years of his life fighting bloody wars, and he endorsed the commom Islamic idea of jihad, which is a defensive
'fight.' He told his followers to basically slaughter anyone who would not bow to the will of Allah. The idea of jihad is the basis of many islamic terrorist organizations, and it's clear that islam, as a whole, is the most dangerous threat to the security of the world today.
All of these things are facts taken from the words of Muhammed, and the Koran itself...as well as from the followers of the prophet. These are not attacks and they are surely not brutal and insensitive. If you want to pretend Islam is backed by this mountain of evidence, if you want to pretend it's peaceful at it's heart, go ahead...but you're lying to yourself. If one considers my exposing that to be an attack, then so be it...tho, it doesn't make it so.
Just had to state my case real quick-like, because it can be misleading when someone posts a link to your site, but offers no evidence of 'attacks.' She e mailed me and told me it wasn't serious...sorta lightly kidding, but I will keep this here, in case anyone thinks I am the devil and wants to see that I am indeed not. I'm a fun guy like that...
Posted by Josh at April 21, 2003 12:40 AM